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Post by maisiepaisie on May 4, 2007 6:33:21 GMT
I'll totally against breeding our companion animals for obvious reasons. A friend of mine wants to let her cat have a litter before she's neutered. She already has 6 cats who she doesn't always take the best care of. I pointed out that she will be bringing more carnivores into the world to eat other animals and that there are other cats and kittens in need of homes but she desperately wants to see animals being born and says she will keep all the kittens. Is there anything more I can say to change her mind? I think if there was some way she could see some other animal give birth that would make her happy.
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Post by fezzarooooo on May 4, 2007 21:22:32 GMT
Perhaps take her to the local RSPCA to see all the kittens that get put down because of people like her.
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Post by maisiepaisie on May 5, 2007 8:21:19 GMT
Her answer to that is that she will keep them all. I know she believes that she will take care of them all properly from now on but I'm worried that if she gets in another state of depression like she has in the past she will neglect them again. I would not like to be responsible for more than 6 cats. Its just too much for one person
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Post by Tiggerwoos on May 5, 2007 15:06:52 GMT
No one could give that amount of attention to that many cats. We have 5 and any more I believe would be asking for trouble.
Tell her to read Cat Confidential by Vicky Halls which gives an excellent insight into cat behaviour and it will explain why large numbers can promote so much unhappiness in cats.
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Post by maisiepaisie on May 6, 2007 10:39:32 GMT
Thanks Tiggs. I found it on Amazon for 80p. Good idea!
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Post by astrocat on Sept 2, 2007 11:38:44 GMT
Have you said this to her ? I mean, if she already is fairly slack about looking after them, and has been known to somewhat neglect them when she feels depressed, then her developing a state of depression in the future is hardly going to make the matter better. For comparison : Mary has 6 children, who she does not take very good care of. Mary is prone to bouts of depression, during which she is well known to neglect the children.... for example, leaving them in soiled diapers, forgetting to feed them even once a day, etc.... Mary realises that the sensible thing to do is to be sterilised, but before this happens she wants to have 6 more children - for no better reason than that she has fixation about watching babies being born. If she were honest or considerate, then she would recognise and admit that she already doesn't care very well for her kids, and would accept the implications of her bouts of depression upon the welfare of her present and potential future children. From there, surely only a very selfish person would decide that it doesn't matter because their personal fixation is the most important thing to consider. & Her answer is completely beside the point, and thus does not refute what is being said. The point here is that animal shelters are full of animals which have been abandoned by people who value their own selfish priorities above animals' welfare and wellbeing. Even if this friend is not actively boosting the numbers of animals in there by abandoning animals produced through her own irresponsibility, that in no way invalidates the point. The fact still remains, that if she goes to an animal shelter (ie the local RSPCA) she can see, clear as day, lots of little kittens who will probably be killed, because she is choosing to 'see animals being born' then raise a batch of new animals resulting from that, rather than adopting the ones who are in need of homes already. Of course, you could also comment that many (perhaps most) of the owners who abandoned pets to animal shelters, will have decided to let their pets produce babies, by wanting to think that they could look after them all - in spite of any evidence to the contrary. If people value their own pleasure over animals' welfare, they are more likely to decide "I want cats, so it's best to think that i will be able to look after them regardless of evidence to the contrary" Whereas, if people value animals' welfare over their own pleasure, they are more likely to think 'I want cats, but is my behaviour and life situation appropriate for raising cats ?' If the woman just has an obsession with seeing animals being born, then I think that she should get a fix some other way. For example : uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=animals+giving+birth&search=Search
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Post by astrocat on Sept 2, 2007 11:42:52 GMT
It is also worth noting that cats can have more than ten kids in one litter.
The average is lower than that - but anyone who is responsible would prepare for what will happen, whether the number of babies turns out to be above, below, or exactly average.
Similarly, i think that people deciding to get pregnant should be prepared to have more than one child as a result of it since that's possible. I very much think this when it comes to IVF since the whole idea with IVF is to fertilise many eggs and implant them, rather than (as is frequently the case) people instead being 'shocked' to have more than one kid, having spent all of their money on IVF, and ending up in a compromised position when it comes to caring for and providing for their children.
Do animal shelters let you do stuff like offering to temporarily adopt pets ?
I'm thinking that maybe this friend could offer to adopt ten cats from an animal shelter.... then see how long it takes for her to give up, and give them all back again because she just can't handle looking after 16 cats for any length of time, never mind for ten years or more.
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Post by maisiepaisie on Sept 2, 2007 23:44:15 GMT
We don't actually speak anymore since this woman told me to get out of her house, completely flipping her lid over some minor disagreement. I'm convinced she's mentally unbalanced. I've said all I can to her on the subject but it falls on deaf ears. She's so selfish that she gave up her veganism to do the atkins diet. What more can I say
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Post by astrocat on Sept 3, 2007 2:08:19 GMT
(O.O) oh my.... ! Well, for your own wellbeing I reckon that it's probably for the best (quite probably somewhat !) that you don't speak to this strange-sounding woman any more. OK, so is it just me here who thinks so, or do you reckon that having an obsession with watching animals giving birth.... ick I mean, things giving birth is just such a nasty-looking thing, with all of the gore and all, as well as I reckon it should be a bit personal, so humans being all gawpy about it seems kind of..... ehh.... strange, you know ? Imagine ! There are no doubt people who have a similar fixation with human females giving birth, they probably often try to get jobs in maternity wards of hospitalks and suchlike, I would think. They would generally just stand about gawping at babies who have been born, but what if they started going into operating rooms while people are giving birth, and having a good old gawp at what's going on...... I think that people generally would be like, ew..... what's their problem ? Don't they respect anyone's privacy ? uhhh.... you know ?
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Post by Wabbit on Sept 3, 2007 11:25:44 GMT
we could expand this topic to humans breeding way too many kids when there are bazillions of them available for adoption & who live in horrible conditions until their (early) demise.
The main difference is that human & children rights have been promoted for years and even decades, with many humanitarian aid taking care (not as much as it could be) whilst animal welfare isn't as present, in spite of AR activism, as society - and governments - judging AR to be extremists (i.e danger to the sacrosaint stomach & all the lobbies)
However, there is a common point between having kids and pets, in many families : kids are like pets, made not for their sake but the parents'... so many people have kids for the wrong reasons, such as "oh i had a difficult life i want to raise kids differently than i was brought up" , or "oh i love kids, it's wonderful blah blah blah" - well, how about the demographic explosion & its consequences ? how about all those kids dying in **fill in country** ?
and if you ask me so what about the souls that won't reincarnate if not born because we adopt ? well, there's no clear answer, is there ? but, in my opinion, let's fix this planet so those souls can enjoy it & not create more trouble - there's enough space for them all in the spiritual realms, let them remain - and those who do have kids will have the responsibility of raising those new souls as the goal isn't to forbid birthing but be sensible about it & throw our damn egos of wanting to "make babies" for our sole amusement as once we are bored with them, we neglect them... just like those cats & dogs & other "pets"...
Which is the other problem ! when people will call their pets "animal companions" and have compassion toward all living beings (i.e vegans who don't go on atkins and want to breed their cats just for the egocentric view of their births, but also, any hypocritical omnis stating they love their pets (i.e toys) or animals in general - who get shocked when they hear chinese eat cat! - but don't see the wrong in eating birds, cows & pigs...
some judge other countries as "primitive" for having too many babies, but the problem is the same in the so-called "modern" countries !
ah, what a double faced society !
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Post by astrocat on Sept 3, 2007 14:43:39 GMT
If we do, i reckon that the topic will be locked because of the in-fighting which no doubt would result from it. This doesn;t sound good at all, so I'm not going to go into it here. I do already have a topic about human overpopulation at VegansRock, though, for anyone interested.
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Post by Wabbit on Sept 3, 2007 18:16:21 GMT
i don't think there should be fight regarding this, if we vegans can't have a sensible respectful exchange of opinions, who can ? i didn't add my post to create havoc but to show the link between those 2 problems. I'm in no way saying no one should have children as that would mean our race's extinction within the lifetime of everyone alive nowdays... contrary to the cats who will survice us i bet ;d
the reasons that woman wants her car cats to breed are of the same egocentric reasons as those who make babies with no consideration whatsoever... or, another example of an ex friend of mine who wanted so badly to make "his own babies'" that he refused to build his relationship with a girl friend who had 2 children from a previous 7 years failed mariage... she didn't want to have more - understandable - and he couldn't accept that, so he ended the one positive relationship he had... by cheating on her first, thus confirming my theory that he wanted to procreate, not to have children, and even less, to raise them... selfish...
i read a few posts on your forum, astrocat, seems interesting to be around - had never checked it out before
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Post by maisiepaisie on Sept 3, 2007 18:59:00 GMT
OK, so is it just me here who thinks so, or do you reckon that having an obsession with watching animals giving birth.... ick I mean, things giving birth is just such a nasty-looking thing, with all of the gore and all, as well as I reckon it should be a bit personal, so humans being all gawpy about it seems kind of..... ehh.... strange, you know ? I don't think its ick, its a beautiful thing IMO but tainted if its something engineered by humans. I've seen puppies being born. My mum bred from our dog when I was 15 and didn't know any better. With regard to human overpopulation I think that in the UK at least, societys structure encourages people to have kids. My eldest son recently came back to live with me after living with his dad. I was pleasantly surprised at all the extra cash I was given in the form of child tax credits, and child benefit. Quite a bit more than it costs to keep him and he's entitled to free school meals while at school so that saves me even more. If I was so inclined I'd be much better off financially if I had more kids and the goverment would most likely give me a nice big house as well. Its no surprise that poor people often have loads of kids and don't bother to work. It shouldn't be profitable to have kids, the whole benefits system needs an overhaul
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Post by Wabbit on Sept 3, 2007 19:08:31 GMT
OK, so is it just me here who thinks so, or do you reckon that having an obsession with watching animals giving birth.... ick I mean, things giving birth is just such a nasty-looking thing, with all of the gore and all, as well as I reckon it should be a bit personal, so humans being all gawpy about it seems kind of..... ehh.... strange, you know ? I don't think its ick, its a beautiful thing IMO but tainted if its something engineered by humans. I've seen puppies being born. My mum bred from our dog when I was 15 and didn't know any better. With regard to human overpopulation I think that in the UK at least, societys structure encourages people to have kids. My eldest son recently came back to live with me after living with his dad. I was pleasantly surprised at all the extra cash I was given in the form of child tax credits, and child benefit. Quite a bit more than it costs to keep him and he's entitled to free school meals while at school so that saves me even more. If I was so inclined I'd be much better off financially if I had more kids and the goverment would most likely give me a nice big house as well. Its no surprise that poor people often have loads of kids and don't bother to work. It shouldn't be profitable to have kids, the whole benefits system needs an overhaul it's the same here in france maisie... all is made for breeders... when you know the average in france is over 2 babies per family & that the nation is proud of it... when you go at the street, it's quite different as many couples don't have kids and others have 6... or 8.. or 12... they get family & social benefits, reductions in tax payments & so on... but, the hidden fees are for school (why isn't it free, since its mandatory ? shouldn't taxes pay for that ? ) and all other child related surprises... if i had kids, oh if i had kids i'd be a breeding bunny ;d
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Post by astrocat on Sept 4, 2007 13:01:41 GMT
thanks. I have found that vegans are no more capable of respectful, sensible discussion about this than non-vegans, and that many people are incapable of that. In many cases, this seems to be due to themselves wanting to produce children, or already having done so - and that having clouded their judgement. I have just had a post deleted behind-the-scenes for sensibly and respectfully expressing complaint at someone being sexist, so I doubt that a topic as controvertial as this will be allowed to run without post-deletion and eventual locking.
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Post by Wabbit on Sept 4, 2007 13:06:47 GMT
I understand astrocat, guess it is rather controversial indeed, a topic best shared one on one to limit the heat of conversation lol
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Post by astrocat on Sept 4, 2007 13:24:23 GMT
Depending on the company, I don't have a problem with group discussion of this topic, since when people are logical, civil and reasonable then conversations tend not to become heated whether they are on controvertial subjects or not.
My main problem with feeling able to discuss this here is that i do not feel that the moderation approach of at least one moderator here, is conductive to honest, constructive discussion.
Anyway, I'm going to stop posting here anyway (for the same reason) so i'm not going into any new discussions here, of any kind, from now on.
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Post by tabitha on Sept 4, 2007 13:29:16 GMT
My brother and his wife were dead set on getting a "breed" of cat. They particularly wanted a Bengal Tabby. I managed to persuade them that there were some beautiful cats languishing away in rescue homes! They went to see some and agreed that they had indeed seen some gorgeous cats. I was very pleased. Until the other day when they told me they had decided not to get a cat because of the mess!
Im sure our Soldier has British Blue in him somewhere. My friend, who used to breed burmans, said he looked proper posh...... ;D
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Post by maisiepaisie on Sept 4, 2007 16:05:09 GMT
Huh? What mess do cats make? They always use litter trays
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Post by tabitha on Sept 4, 2007 16:36:53 GMT
I know I think they have that obsessive, compulsive thing about cleaning. We stayed there last week and it was like staying in a pristine hotel. I was scared to touch anything. Perhaps the cat is better off not living with them. Soldier is the cleanest cat I have ever had. Hes only ever been sick once. He has never messed anywhere. His only fault is that he will pretend he is affectionate and then swipe you when you least expect it - you know, just when you are really enjoying stroking him and your pulse rate is nice and low and you are just drifting off into your own little world, then WHAM!!!! He smacks you one! The b*gger! ;D
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