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Post by maisiepaisie on May 30, 2007 9:57:45 GMT
After 2 years I've decided to cut all ties with my local animal rights group Manchester Animal Protection. I just found out that I'm no longer welcome there and that members have been gossiping behind my back. All this is because last year I had a dangerous dog euthanised. I have no regrets for what I did other than I wish I'd never taken on this dog in the first place but I hadn't been aware of his temperamental behaviour. Now I've lost a lot of friends because of this. I really need to know how you guys feel about this so please answer the poll honestly.
To fully understand the situation please read my replies in the conversation below which is between myself and one of my myspace "friends" who I used to know before he moved to Australia. The replies in blue start with his response to a bulletin I sent out about how we can help animals:
You could also not kill them when you get bored of them.
Do you think thats a constructive thing to say? Do you think sending me that message helps animals? Actually you've just made me realise what my "friends" in MAP really think of me, seeing as though this news has reached the other side of the world so now I would feel extremely uncomfortable in their company. Maybe I just won't do animal rights anymore. You really have helped the animals there haven't you.
I wonder what you would have done in my shoes? I was bitten 6 times by this dog. My son was bitten twice, the 2nd time he had to have stitches on his face. He will have the scars for the rest of his life. Sammy would also attack other dogs for no apparent reason. When he attacked it wouldn't just be one bite. He would go on biting and snarling until someone (me) pulled him away. He would like to have killed my mums cavalier spaniel. Should I have let him? After all, some AR people believe animals should be completely free, right?
Do you know anyone who might have been willing to take on Sammy? It would need to be someone experienced with dogs that could have trained him but its important that they have no other dogs as Sammy would attack other dogs. Hmmm... an experienced dog owner with no dogs willing to take on a vicious dog that could attack at any moment without warning. Funnily enough I couldn't find anyone fitting that description. Its a pity you moved to Australia or maybe you could have taken Sammy.
So you see, I didn't *kill* Sammy because I got bored with him. Sammy spent many months shut in other rooms while I tried to rehome him. I wasn't bothered about him biting me but I wasn't going to put my son at risk by having him in the same room. Do you think any life is better than no life? Sammy wasn't happy I could tell. We couldn't interact with him fully for fear of being attacked. Maybe you think I should have kept him for the rest of his life shut out of the room where we are. I don't. I think I did the kindest thing for Sammy and what any responsible mother would have done. I love animals and I will help them anyway I can. I would put myself at risk to help animals but I won't put my kids at risk.
Its attitudes like the one you've just shown that turn people away from AR. I'm not surprised some people think we're all a bunch of extremist nutjobs. You think we should keep dangerous dogs alive when there aren't even enough homes for the dogs that are rehomeable!!! Get real.
You know damn well there was a home set up for your dog. You were told about this but had the dog killed instead.
Consistent compassion is what this is all about so it's no wonder you're not exactly welcomed around MAP circles.
You are right, if I'd still been there things would be have been a whole lot different.
I don't know what you have heard but there was no home set up for my dog. There were a couple of people who said they might be able to help but in the end they couldn't. All the time I was waiting my sons safety was at risk and Sammy was unhappy because he could not be allowed to interact with people and other dogs.
You never answered my question when I asked if you think that any life is better than no life. If its not possible for a being (human or animal so don't accuse me of being speciesist) to live a happy life being allowed to practice natural behaviour then IMO that life is not worth living. Even if you disagree with that the fact is that I could not keep this dog without putting my son and myself and my other animals at risk. ****** knew I was trying to rehome Sammy. We'd talked about it several times . I'd been phoning rescues and posting messages online for months but NO ONE was able to help. I don't see what more I could have done but I'm sure you will have the answers.
You know I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me. I know I have done many good things for animals. I have driven hundreds of miles collecting dogs due to be euthanised and taken them to other rescues. I've also given hundreds of hours help to Rodent Rescue and taken in unwanted guinea pigs rabbits and hamsters when theres been nowhere else for them to go so you can say whatever you like about me but you're not going to make me feel bad about myself for Sammy. If someone had taken on Sammy its likely that he would have injured or killed another dog or a child. How would you feel about that? I know I did the right thing and I don't regret it.
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Post by veggiesosage on May 30, 2007 10:23:41 GMT
Its unfortunate that in pretty much all 'causes' there seems to be a need to be 'holier than thou'. Its probably a lot easier to point and stare than to take responsibilities themselves or even imagine what they would do in the same situation.
I don't know the full story but I think the person who passed this dog onto you without giving you the full story bears an awful lot of the responsibility, I hope they're not one of the ones criticising you now.
Clearly as you've said, the consequences of this dog attacking your son just don't bear thinking about and you had to put him first.
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Post by puffin on May 30, 2007 10:35:09 GMT
I agree with Veggie. You did what you could and they were not the ones who had to live in fear of the dog bitting there child. Its awful when people judge without knowing the whole story. I hope you dont lose to many friends over this Maisie, you have done a hell of a lot more than many people will ever do for animals.
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Post by maisiepaisie on May 30, 2007 12:51:49 GMT
Thanks for your support guys. I was starting to think I was going crazy and that everyone was against me but its good to know I still have some real friends. I thought all this was in the past and forgotten but apparently not. I've a good idea of who it was who went round telling everyone her version of events like saying that Sammy had a home lined up when he didn't.
Its a shame that some people in animal rights are so extreme in their views and cannot understand or accept others who have different views. Its like the time there was an elderly lady at a SPEAK demo. I asked someone why she was stood alone and the reply was "No one talks to her. She eats meat. She always stands on her own" Looking back I wish I'd gone over to talk to her but for some reason I did not I'm ashamed to say.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying all AR people are extreme but there are a lot like this and it drives people away from the movement. I've seen loads of new people come to meetings and a couple of demos then they never come back. There must be a reason and I think maybe they feel like they don't fit in. The first time I went to a meeting I felt like this because I wasn't vegan. I never went back until I became vegan a few months later. I know at least one other person who told me they never went back for the same reason. Some people ought to think about how this attitude is hindering the progress of the AR movement because now theres one less person involved
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Post by tabitha on May 30, 2007 13:34:06 GMT
You did the right thing Maisie! I remember the soul searching you went through at the time and I know it wasnt something you did lightly. I also remember how upset you were afterwards.
These people are being very shortsighted. Ignore.
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Post by fezzarooooo on May 30, 2007 17:19:30 GMT
I remember how hard you tried to get sammy a home maisie, you did the only thing you could in the circumstances. None of those buggers took him off your hands so they're just being bloody hypocrites by picking on you, you're better off without them.
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Post by veganbikerboy on Jun 2, 2007 16:33:12 GMT
i put 'not sure'. i wasnt around at the time when it all happened, so not sure of all the detail; but there are several reasons why I can see how dfficult a decision it would have been to make. vicious dogs can be re-trained but it takes many many months (i have done it and have the scars to prove it ) but with you having a son; it is not a risk that i would have been willing to take, so i can see your predicament. If he had simply been placed with the 'dogs trust' or similar he would have been euthinased; as they have so many to rehome vicious ones often get euthinased. So he would have had to be put with someone you know and it would have required a very special home. ultimatley, i feel it is wrong to euthinase an animal (unless in pain) particularly if it is due to behaviour that is likely to have been a reaction to being mistreated by a human in the past. But you have to put yours (and family) safety first; it is not always possible to find a suitable home and if the dog is to spend the rest of his life 'negalected' it is the only option. maisie, you did a good job in trying to offer him a second chance in the first place, so for me, i dont agree with it but I understand and I certainly wouldnt criticise you for it and certainly dont hold it against you. (you notice how i changed my mind on the way i voted LOL)
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Post by lilachamster on Jul 11, 2007 15:16:08 GMT
I'm not sure if it was right or wrong, I don't know how much hope there would have been for this dog to change, but it seems to me you were put in an impossible position, and they are hypocrites if none of them would help but now are so willing to pick on you (I bet they don't all have kids either who would be at risk if they had taken on the dog). I'm so sorry to hear they were so mean in your local AR group. Treating you this way just sends out the message to other people "don't even bother to try to help an animal with behaviour problems" which is a very negative message to send out! I couldn't have done what you did, what I mean is I would not have had the courage to take on such a dog in the first place therefore I certainly would have no right to judge you for having him put down when he was so totally unmanageable and kept hurting you and your son. You should not feel forced out of the AR group and you should be allowed to state your side of things, especially as someone has been lying about there being a home lined up.
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Post by Wabbit on Jul 23, 2007 12:42:34 GMT
I wasn't around at the time either, but I do agree with the previous statements, you did the right thing under extreme circumpstances ! You have helped save many many animals through being vegan + AR + rescues. No one can jugde you like that ! you are the only one who can judge yourself, according to your own set of values + conditions of the moment. Here, you had no one to help you whilst your safety & your son's satety were at stakes.
I agree with Lilac, you shouldn't leave the AR ; I believe you should set the records straight so they know you had no choice & that lies had been spread !
I never could have done any of it myself, I'm way too sensitive for that... I save mice & birds out of Minuet's mouth when I can, but that's nothing compared to putting hours in driving to resuce places to relocate animals on the brink of death.. nor do I have a child to feed, educate, monitor his or her safety, and so on... so, let the fake friends go & stick to supportive ones !
I can imagine how you felt when all this happened & how it made you feel when ppl started judgign you in this fashion, compounding an already difficult situation you had to live with, so for all that you've gone throigh a huge *hug* & for all the good that you've done I salute you, coureagous AR maisie !
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Post by sluggie on Jul 26, 2007 23:50:13 GMT
Well said Wabbit.
*Hugs Maisie too*
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Post by Luna Star on Aug 22, 2007 11:21:33 GMT
Considering the circumstances, I think you did the only thing that could have reasonably been done. Your first priority in life is your children! If your son was at risk, you had every right to consider his life and wellbeing above and beyond anything else in this world. No doubt, with a dog like that, it would be short of a miracle to find him another home. If you had sent him to a shelter, no doubt, he would have been put down almost on the spot! It's so horrible for Sammy that he was so badly mistreated and became so emotionally and mentally derranged that he wasn't able to accept the love being offered to him... Not every dog can be "cured" from their past. It's sad and it's a terrible, but, the underlying fact is, he didn't deserve to spend the rest of his life miserable, locked away, and lonley. Considering the circumstances, and with all your previous efforts in mind, I think that you did the right thing. There are, indeed, thousands of homeless dogs who WANT to be integrated into a loving family, and for those dogs who (for whatever their reasons) cannot be integrated, I think it's our responcibilty to give them the best chance at happiness that we can, and once all solutions are exhausted, there is no other choice than euthenisation. But then again, this opinion comes from a woman who also supports the euthanisation of human beings who are suffering so badly with no hope of releif from their pain. I think, from what I read in your post, that Sammy had gone past-the-point-of-no-return with his violence and insanity... it's so sad. If other AR people in your community are so quick to dismiss you, then perhaps you should point a finger back at them and say, "If you are SO concerned, why didn't you take him into your home? It's ok for him to munch on my child's face, but, it's not ok for him to munch on yours?" Hypocrits! People, as a rule, are ridiculous. I wouldn't take it personally. If you really feel strongly about the work the group is doing, then by all means, stay in the group... but, you know, if it's just too hostile, then screw them, you can do AR work through other groups long-distance, or do indie work on your own. on them!
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Post by maisiepaisie on Aug 23, 2007 16:28:44 GMT
Thanks all for your comments. I still think I was right and I want all the people who condemn me for this out of my life. A couple of days ago my best friend and I had a row about something totally unrelated but out of the blue she announced how she thought "it was really disgusting what you did to Sammy". I was gobsmacked and thought to myself "where did that come from?" I won't ever forgive her for saying that after she pretended to be shocked when I told her about the others but really, she's no better than them.
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Post by mikeg on Dec 2, 2007 13:57:03 GMT
As far as animal rights go, I believe in the rights of all living things. I think every living thing has a natural right to live, and to live as naturally as possible.
It is completely natural to defend your family, it is unfortunate, but at the end of the day it sounds like this dog might easily have killed someone soon if you had not acted.
Rather than blame you, I would be more interested in knowing where you got the dog, and why it behaved so violently.
I have been around rescue dogs LOTS, and used to be involved in animal rights (Direct action/hunt sabs etc) and do have experience of being around quite a wide variety of dogs, including some usually considered 'dangerous'. I usually find that except for a small minority, the problem is more one of nurture rather than nature. So i wonder why the people blaming you are not asking where you got the dog, and why it was so aggressive?
I for one think you did the right thing. To take a life is a hard thing, especially when you are charged with looking after that life, but many people would have had the dog put down the first or second bite. You didn't, you tried to stick with it.
At the end of the day dogs are in essence pack animals, and in their natural environment dogs WOULD be killed for attacking other members of the pack etc... its sad to have to do this yourself, but that is life. Life is NOT perfect, don't feel too bad... its natural to feel sad that you had to do this, but i don't think you had a choice!
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Post by charlielikesfolk on Feb 19, 2008 2:05:43 GMT
My Father had a two year old puppy put down, it bit 16 holes in my Aunties ankle. I was well upset, just so you know, you're not alone! ;-)
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moon
Vegan Munchkin
Posts: 62
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Post by moon on Feb 21, 2008 11:31:33 GMT
friends are supposed to support you in your hour of need not pile the pressure on even more i have four children and a one year old granddaughter and i love all creature big or small but the safety of your children should always and definatly come first! i think you did the only thing you could under extemely difficult and upsetting cicumstances.you will find true friends not superficial ones,im sure
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Post by littlewinker on Mar 9, 2008 19:48:04 GMT
I don't agree with what you did, euthanasia should be ABSOLUTELY last resort. You could have hired a trainer for example before getting rid. there are other things you could have tried first. And also you have to accept in taking on a dog that they're animals and still have un-domestic behaviour It was only your opinion that an unnatural life is better than none - the dog might not agree. Through no fault of my own I lead an unnatural unsociable life right now and I'm unhappy but I've got my whole life ahead of me for it to improve. The dog could have improved, and his behaviour and life could have improved so it should only be cut short when there really is no othe option. However, rather than bitching and driving out a useful member, they could have discussed it to your face and no way excluded you. They KNOW your intentions are good or you wouldn't even be involved in animal rights, if they don't realize that it's their loss. They shouldn't have fallen out with you. They should accept that just because as a whole you agree and are aiming to the same things every person is still not the same, it's called tolerance. By behaving intolerantly like this they're living up to the extremist steroetype So I'm gonna say, it was wrong but I'll still be your friend
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Post by chenli on Mar 30, 2008 15:44:47 GMT
I disagree with your action. No matter how 'dangerous' a dog is, there is no need to take it's right to life away. So what, it bit your son? Dogs do bite. I'm sorry to break the obvious to you. What did your son do to make it bite? What did you do to make it bite? Did you consider that? Did you consider a mussle? Etc etc etc. Dogs don't bite for no reason. Hell, even the way you moved your arm may have made him feel threated due to previous experiences. He may have had a brain tumour (this can be a cause of dogs biting randomly).
There will always be a place somewhere that will take on dogs that do what you just said. I volunteer at a sanctuary, and they have a dog that will tear other animals to pieces...yet, still he remains at the sanctuary after 2 years, still alive, because the sanctuary have taken the responsibility of looking after him. The owners have had their fair share of bites, but still, they do not give up and go for the 'easy option'.
Would you put your son down if your son bit the dog? Think about it. A humans life should not take precedance over an animals when there is blatently several non-killing solutions to the 'problem'.
I may be sounding harsh, but what you did was wrong, and you should accept that and accept that it is clearly obvious why you've been ostracised by other ARA's.
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Post by tabitha on Mar 30, 2008 16:31:16 GMT
hmmm. Would you still feel like this if the dog had ripped the face off a small baby? I wonder. The dog could have gone on to do that.
We can all sermonise. At the end of the day, you werent that person and you werent in that situation.
Personally, I think this thread should be closed. The person in question does not need this sh*t any more. Its over and done with.
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Post by easyemu15 on Apr 10, 2008 8:21:34 GMT
Would you put your son down if your son bit the dog? Dogs have sharp teeth designed for ripping meat and chewing bones, people do not! Especially a little boy. It's not the same at all. Are you a christian? Because God made us responsible for animals therefore it is our job to look after to them and when the time comes for them to leave to make sure they don't suffer. And he did put people over animals... Totally agree with you!
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Post by maisiepaisie on Apr 21, 2008 20:02:12 GMT
So what, it bit your son? Dogs do bite. I'm sorry to break the obvious to you. What did your son do to make it bite? My son sat down beside the dog and stroked him, thats all. I'm guessing you don't have kids because if you did you would know that a mother ALWAYS puts her kids first. There will always be a place somewhere that will take on dogs that do what you just said. Is that so? Well its a pity no one told me about these places in the 6 months or so that I was posting messages online and ringing sanctuaries to try and rehome this dog. Personally, I think this thread should be closed. The person in question does not need this sh*t any more. Its over and done with. Thanks Tabs. You're right, I've had enough. Because of a handful of holier than thou militant w***ers I will never attend another AR demo. I will however try to help animals in other ways by doing voluntary work and writing letters, so all is not lost.
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